Chatting with Mona Tolley about Decolonizing and Indigenizing Education

This episode opens with Mona grounding us in Anishinaabe teachings of gratitude and welcoming, setting the tone for a conversation about transforming education through relationships.

Mona unpacks the terms decolonization, indigenization, and reconciliation with clarity and purpose, examining how local Indigenous ways of knowing can shape classrooms. Decolonizing helps us see what the system was built to do and who it leaves out. Indigenizing invites local nations’ ways of knowing, doing, and being into the heart of classrooms, curriculum, and school design. Reconciliation turns truth into action: funding language revitalization, co-creating curricula and assessment, and shifting calendars to honour community life.

At its heart, this conversation is about relationships (with people, knowledge, and the land) and how these relationships shape our work as educators and lifelong learners.

Transcript

Welcome And Gratitude Protocol

Stacy 0:06

Welcome to Kwey Let's Talk Education, a podcast where Indigenous and non-Indigenous voices from across Quebec come together to share knowledge and experiences related to education. In each episode, you'll encounter new perspectives that we hope will enrich your practice and deepen your connection to your communities. I am one of your hosts, Stacey Allen, and in this episode, Daphna and I had the honor of speaking with Mona Tolli about decolonizing and indigenizing education. Welcome everyone to our first podcast of the new year. I am super blessed and grateful to be doing this podcast with uh Daphne and Mona. Mona, I'd like to pass the speaking, I guess, to you to open our conversation with a word of gratitude.

Mona 1:11

Okay, we got so I'm gonna say this in the inishnaobe movin, which is the language of my nation. And really it is about when we come together to recognize that we are all equal and that we are all dependent on on things to to survive. So Miguel Da, Kijeminado, Kakana Keigo, Kagijendan, Megwech kijeminado onje eki ni kisis to be kies is the shijanagashan. Miguch on je kakinawan sisa, kakana kego net tauging, me gwech onje ka mien, kakana kego, kijemin no manzian. Miguch on jenid odmak. We look shuanim nibajik, ketapakosajik, kayawa wisimajib, migwech kibija. And the one word that you hear often in that is is mechan in our language that's basically a a thank you. And when we we can come together at a place where we're coming in as equals, we're coming in as both teachers and learners, lifelong learning, we can situate ourselves with the good intentions and moving forward. And that's the protocol of uh of opening for for us.

Stacy 2:43

You mentioned that we would begin with a round of introductions.

Introductions And Roles

Stacy 2:47

Who would like to begin?

Daphna 2:50

Oh, I'll start. So I'm uh Daphne Libovich Deen. I am the provincial consultant for the RITC for First Nations and Inuit. So the RITC is a a network of educators across Quebec that support uh teachers in the field of uh integration technology and digital skills. I'm very happy to be here with you both.

Stacy 3:16

So I'm Stacey. I say I'm firstmost a mom of two vibrant young women who I love completely. I'm of mixed European descent, originally from Nova Scotia, and I now live in the eastern township, which is beautiful today. I went for a walk with my dogs over lunch and we have wonderful weather, so I'm super grateful for that. And I now work as a consultant uh to learn helping schools and uh teachers and students prepare for what's next in the world to come.

Mona 3:58

I really appreciate you being very open to bringing in Nishinaob protocols. It's so important because when we say as Nishinaabed people that we are the land, it's really in the ways of doing, and protocols are a way of doing. It's to acknowledge, like when I'm introducing myself, I am telling you what are my roles and responsibilities. I'm also sharing with you, not to talk about myself, but it's establishing a relationship where you're understanding where I'm from, who I belong to, what are my roles and responsibilities. And so if I'm saying like I'm a cookum, in our understanding of responsibilities within our nation, that that will tell you that I have certain responsibilities to uphold as a grandmother, because cookum means grandmother. And so the work or where and how I engage will be directed based on these roles and responsibilities that I have. So I tell you, like, I'm from the Kittagon ZB Nation, and I grew up there, I I worked there, I went to school there, I learned a lot of our ways to raid on the territory under on a reserve or around it, because you know, reserves are small, but our territory is big. And so going through my life journey, I have my roles and responsibilities have changed, like going, let's say, from just being a daughter, and now you know, I'm a mother and moving into grandmother. And so when we say lifelong learning, there's a connection there to our journey and our roles and responsibilities of what we're going to do. I in my life journey, along with those certain roles and responsibilities, I have been, I would say, blessed to be an educator. And I think in my educational professional, I have taught probably every grade at some point, whether it was two weeks, whether it was a couple months, or whether it was a whole year. I and those who teach the small ones, those people are special because I was in there for just a couple of weeks and I was wiped every day. But the one thing that that really made me think about is like I love teaching the last year of high school. Just loved it. Because our teachings tell us that at that age and stage, our young people are they're passionate about everything. And every age and stage has something that we can learn as well as teach and help mentors support. So it's always uh this this reciprocal learning paradigm that is happening. So being with the young people, they are often reminding us is what are we saying is it true. And so when we look at it that way, we can relate and we can have a relationship that is about engaging in their connections instead of having like an authoritarian kind of approach to teaching and learning. But it was through these teaching and learning experiences or these educational experiences where I really saw that there's some

Why Protocols Shape Relationships

Mona 8:20

people who have, and this is part of our teachings, everyone has a gift, and some people have such a beautiful gift of connecting to young ones from being able to start singing to being able to have that teaching of emotional regulation at that age. It's a really beautiful thing that a lot of our people either they have it naturally or they learn it and they're able to apply it. And some are better with older ones, and and being able to reflect upon what are your own gifts and where can you apply that, I think is such a strength to have as an educator. I then moved on to, I think I taught college, university, moved into curriculum writing. I am now working at the University of Ottawa as my title has changed several times. I think it's actually Indigenizing Process Designer, but really it's about the advising and working with professors on how to decolonize and indigenize. But I only work for them part-time. I also work for the Cree School Board in their different initiatives with um basically SIG indigenization efforts. So it's there's a lot going on. I'm very happy to see the growth that I think happens in Indigenous education. However, I'm very cognizant of the fact that we are still dealing with colonialism hangover, like those kinds of impacts that still come in waves, because unless that is completely gone, we're still going to feel those impacts. And we are in communities, which is why I think education is so important. But education coming from our ways of knowing, doing, and being of whatever nation we are from. And that has multiple implications when we're talking about educations in provincial schools and how do we navigate these things, especially when there are many levels and gaps in the understanding from non-indigenous towards indigenous people?

Daphna 11:01

Mona, you mentioned, of course, uh decolonization and indigenization, and those are terms that many non-indigenous educators I feel still struggle to understand. So when we talk about creating indigenized spaces, what does that look like in education?

Mona 11:23

That's a very good question, and I think it's important to be also talking about those interplays or the connections between decolonizing, indigenizing, and reconciliation, because those are core concepts that are currently being worked through. And there are funding also that are associated with this. So to be thinking about these three things at this as important pieces towards the work, I think is important. So if we're talking about decolonizing, really, it's understanding that there are other ways, valuable other ways of knowing and doing and being, and to sort of delve into the historical reasons of why things are the way they are. And we speak about colonization in terms sometimes of something that has happened in the past, however, the product or the what had happened because of that, in terms of our even just our thinking. Why do we think things are a certain way? Like where does that come from and why is it still that way? To start to look at the history, because if something is not working, we need to find out how it is built. And maybe we need to sometimes change it, take it apart. Sometimes we need to get rid of it and build something new. But we're looking at decolonizing as a way to deconstruct. We need to see what are all of these pieces, because we can look at the statistics to recognize that it doesn't work for everyone. And so making creating that space a little bit to allow for a different way of understanding, maybe different worldview,

Teaching Journeys And Gifts

Mona 13:40

can have or make room for indigenization. And indigenization can come and show and be built in in different areas. Really, indigenization is making something from the ways of knowing, doing, and being of indigenous people. One of the things that I often advise people who are beginning to do this work is well, we want to start with education, but where do we start, right? And we have teachings, again, going back to even the protocol of the words of gratitude. It's like we are grateful for the land of where we live, the these trees, these this water, these animals that are here that allow us to live, we are starting below our feet. And that is one thing I try to advise we need to start below our feet. So if your institution or if your school is located, let's say on an Islamabe, unceded, unsurrendered territory, then that's a good place to start. Start who are saying do you have relationships with anybody? Why don't you have any relationships? Are the indigenous people you've seen where? Why? These are a lot of questions to kind of situate yourself and your own experience and engagement, especially when we take into account reconciliation, because then we're talking about Canada's history towards indigenous people and specifically the residential schools, and why there is a need for the calls to action and what is that explicitly towards education. So they're very clear. So if it's Anishinaabe, Anishinaabe ways of knowing doing indeed. And then to figure out okay, how are you going to do that then? And that might may look slightly different, depending if you are a person whose nation is from there, or someone who is not. So what human beings, nations change, they grow, they learn. And so where things are right now may not be where they will be, hopefully, um, and let's say 20 years from now. We have to take things contextually and recognizing okay, well, there is a need for decolonizing. Well, okay, indigenizing, we want to bring in a different way of knowing, doing, and being. And we also have this reconciliation aspect to help guide us. When we move into these, this kind of work, then if we're looking at indigenization, we can see that indigenization can happen with individuals. So in the classroom, that could be with the teacher. We could also have indigenization with the the curriculum, like the what it, what it what is it that we are teaching and how we are teaching it. So that's what the class oftentimes we see people uh engage at a content level. So, oh, we're gonna bring in this book or we're gonna have this day. And we have to be careful uh about being tokenistic when that happens, because that's still saying this is the norm, and we're going to add a little bit to try to call that indigenization. But if we recognize, well, we also need to decolonize, how can we create more space for this to actually happen? For instance, land-based pedagogy. Some people, and I'm not saying this is not good, but some people say, Oh, we're doing land-based pedagogy, let's take our textbooks outside. Okay, it might be better than being inside, however, that's not land-based Indigenous pedagogy, because land-based Indigenous pedagogy really is about your relationship to the land and what does the land have to teach us. So we have to be mindful of where we are because we are in a place where we are essentially creating. We're trying to create something new or move away from the way things were before. So we have within, anyways, indigenizing

Defining Decolonizing And Indigenizing

Mona 20:01

in the classroom, that's what the teachers, and how is it set up? Are we doing a circle format? Is it very authoritative? Is it punitive? Maybe we need to have a restorative justice kind of aspect, but then also there's indigenizing of the schools, and this can be actually from the shape, the school itself, because you move differently in different shapes, and you engage in relationships with others based on the shape and the way the structure of the ringing of the bells and things like that. So these are things to keep in mind, but even saying gratitude prayer, uh gratit words of affirmation in the morning, to say we're all equal, we're all we're all here and we're all working towards a good well-being. But that could be something that a school does. We also understand that there's indigenizing of curriculum itself. And when we talk about, well, what is that? Well, this specific nation, we can start there. And then who are the nations that surround us? And then what are the nations in Canada, and maybe then North America, then the world? Like we're able to understand by design how we are connected all the way through. And that also can help define our relationships moving forward. So, yes, we can bring in content, we can bring in speakers, we can start to do PD to fill that gap because there is a gap within the Canadian there was a before all reconciliation um initiatives a gap of what non-indigenous people know about Canadian history of governance all aspects of history so when we start to look at okay how can we build the curricula through yes content yes through people yes through relationships yes through pedagogical methods this is what we're talking about when we're talking about pedagogy like a curriculum indigenizing curriculum and then the other part really has to do I think with the system and this is often a piece I think that is a bit harder to get to it really is a collective effort grounded in certain understandings to be able to say yes but we need to change this within the system but that's not that's also important to be said that it has been done.

Stacy 23:12

So there are educational frameworks out there that take into consideration or start with using indigenous ways knowing doing and being there are changes that's in calendars that take into account well this is a very important time for our people they need to go harvesting at this time of the year so we're having a moose breaker beaver break or something at this time so systemic changes like that like what is in the calendar maybe it's having a sort of justice program that utilizes the support of elders in the community you can create different ways if we're thinking about systemic change and that could even land even in a collective agreement so depending on again it's usually contextual what are those needs that are coming up and what are in a broader sense people striving for in terms of indigenizing education there's a you uh answer so beautifully and I think your definitions of decolonization and indigenization and what what that looks like is was very clear to me and it's interesting to see it as a process you know you have to decolonize and ask those questions before you get into what indigenous education could look like and feel like well I see a lot of educators more and more so which is wonderful bringing in content by by people a territory that they're teaching on but less so like processes and approaches you know and I'm wondering if you could speak a bit more about that about where you go as a non-Indigenous educator and you're wanting to move beyond just not only going to content but reframing your own approaches to education where maybe you can start learning and changing.

Mona 25:38

Yes I I think that's an important question because not only do we have those who are like wanting to engage or take that next step we also have those people who are fearful we have those people who are so worried about making a mistake that they don't engage and while they're coming from different sort of maybe prior knowledge they're coming from different experiences of why they're not there yet I think that Anishinabe givingaswan our understanding around teaching and learning has a lot to offer and basically the the foundational aspect of that is even if we have a profession of teachers we are still learners so when we're coming into a space where we know that and we act accordingly like we're like just listen to me because I'm the export expert like that's a that's not a thing for many indigenous people because even if I have learned something I've learned it from someone I carry it and I'm gonna pass that on for the well-being of my people so this understanding even and the the goals of education

Starting Below Your Feet

Mona 27:15

sometimes are a little bit different. So we have sometimes Western education that is very individualistic very competitive even against students and and sometimes punitive and it even shows up like it's supported in so many ways but one way that it is supported is through marking system and there are other nations across the world had that or schools that have done away with marking because even standardized testing because they say it does more harm that can good it doesn't even adequately show what it says it's going to show is it worth it and some people decide it's no it's not worth it. We can find out this information in in different ways but if we're talking about I think ways in which we can change our processes well pedagogy approaches are one thing marking is another one so if we're looking at the progression of knowledge from an indigenous perspective and we can recognize that when we know okay we're learning something new so oftentimes it's an observation it's just observation we're just around it we're this is naturally how it works then sometimes that learner shows readiness for whatever it is let's say it's cleaning a fish so they're watching or watching or seeing it being done then they might show some readiness and it might be like oh can I hold a knife or I'm asking questions or I'm hanging around more like there's readiness and when we're talking about in the classroom we do see this as well too we'll see students pick up something because they're they're showing that oh maybe I want to try this when there is that prior knowledge of I've seen things and I'm I'm interested then we move into more of the practical the practice part of it usually it's guided by mentor an elder or someone who has that knowledge already and they're showing this student or this learner this is how you do it with safety in mind with with the vocabulary and they're going in through a basic kind of knowledge all the while they're still showing they're showing by doing so this learner is still starting a relationship with this gathering of knowledge in a way that is supportive in a way that if you know that person who's teaching you I wouldn't say cares about you because everybody's like well we don't care about everybody but they care about you getting this knowledge because it's for the well-being of us all so when you're feeling cared about and supported in knowledge then making mistakes is not even a mistake it becomes an opportunity to gain more understanding and practice to be able to move into another the next progression of knowledge which is the doing part so at some point I'm gonna get the from the the learner I'm going to get to a place where they're gonna let me use the knife all by myself and that's when I've moved into a different area someone has noticed that I I know how to be safe someone has noticed that I'm competent in these these certain things and know what I'm doing and now they've moved into an independence and that independence then if I'm continually practicing and I'm doing it well I'm going to move into more of a mastery and now what you often see is those people who are moving through those phases whether it's making mistakes it's being more independent they're starting to teach younger ones because they've gained certain skills at that point. When you're teaching you are building up you're scaffolding your own learning and through confidence so you're you're building this it's just a natural way of building this up so when you do get to okay I can start teaching this that's when we recognize within community oh that person that you you need a new pair of snowshoes then this is the person that you need to contact oh you want to learn about this this is the person you need to talk to that's more of I think an original style that progression of learning now if we're saying okay how do we bring this into the classroom being moving away from a mistakes kind of focus towards bringing in a more like these are opportunities so we're not gonna penalize people for making mistakes we're going to give them more opportunity more support we're going to allow them to start teaching from their level so that they can bring that confidence because learning is holistic so if you're feeling ashamed or you're feeling not good about yourself because you're not over here that's going to impact your ability to learn just as the opposite it's like okay I'm maybe not here but I'm here and I have stuff to share and and then you're going

Classroom, Curriculum, System Change

Mona 33:40

to feel good and you can if that boosts you into okay well maybe I need to learn a bit more and I'm gonna go and ask this person who's here so then you have more of a collective approach to learning instead of an individual bringing in different these different kinds of processes even with marking like one of the things that I was able to do while I was teaching in high school was I moved into this kind of approach and more into a rubric. So if you were a level one let's say for for the sake of having to do grades that for me meant that level one is we missed the boat either you didn't get the the the information the teaching part of it or maybe I didn't teach it in a way that wouldn't been good for you or maybe just you were having an off day something happened we missed the boat we need to redo it so let's get together. That was a a redo where we didn't even really mark it it was just this opportunity for a redo. Also our opportunity for extra learning so I would sit down with the students who may have gotten this this first level and say okay what do we need to do to to move you and then level two would be like in this progression of learning would be well we're still the introduction and it seems like there might be certain things might be missing or you might need more practice and so we're going to focus on that. So whatever might be extra work partnering up with someone who is maybe a level three again using those aspects of whatever we want to call it mentoring or teaching from someone who's a little bit ahead we have that and then we have a level three which is like the grade level you you've done the competencies you basically are doing what moving into that towards independence and then we have level four which is that more independent where you've gone above and beyond those basic competencies we're starting to see someone starting to teach or they're starting to apply to other areas of the of the learning and then we have mastery and being able to have students recognize because then they're able to this kind of approach they're able to also recognize where they are and what are the supports that they can utilize independently or with the teacher because this is one of the things about Western education is it's so set on a one expert 20 or 30 kids depending on size that that approach just mathematically doesn't really work. So then if we're thinking about design process how can we we change that a little bit more to incorporate others that you know could be a significant uh support to each other so it's I hope I answered your question.

Stacy 37:14

No I think that's a beautiful explanation of progression and like continuum. We hear those terms a lot in the Quebec system and yet I think that was the best explanation I've ever heard of a learning progression. So we're good to thank you. I agree completely yeah I just think that was beautiful and really powerful thinking about the classroom as a community right we hear about that but we don't always use or see it necessarily in our structure as a community where students are actively supporting each other's learning. It is like the system sometimes are historically European centric where it's like the teacher is the knowledge expert and seeing other students and their expertise because they can teach even the educator a lot about life and about different skills is just a wonderful way of approaching I think education.

Mona 38:16

It also establishes a positive relationship and in our our teachings about teaching and learning is that that is the vehicle is the best vehicle to be able to learn is when you have a good relationship. And I feel like indigenous people and I won't blanket everybody but in you know the years that I've taught within First Nations schools is that something that was very apparent if you had a good relationship with your students and they were willing to learn and if you didn't it was difficult and then there becomes this push and shove of I'm the authoritative person here you need to listen to me and punitive and it just goes down the train. So establishing like ways of establishing a strong relationship or a respectful relationship is is really important. I think also when we're talking about indigenization how are we again it's always contextual but how are we bringing in what is valuable like how are we showing indigenous students that their ways are valuable like if if there was a provincial school that could sit down and like actually count it out that might be a good practice to because it it would be one understanding depending on how much they have decolonized their own thinking or what do they know know about indigenous people. So it's a learning aspect for ourselves whatever individual that shows up in the collective world. Like systems are the way they are for a reason and sometimes there's a resistance to any kind of change.

Daphna 40:31

Mona you make me think because of course the don't they say in education science that the number one indicator of a student success is the rapport with the teacher some of the communities in Quebec at least the the few that I visited the the role over you know of teachers is is high and so that has implications exactly in terms of the ability to connect to your to your teachers I'm wondering what your thoughts are about that.

Mona 41:05

It does and it's hard to build community if people are moving in and out and sometimes that's why it's important to systemically build in opportunities for community connection. As well I think that we have to recognize that it's not just relationship with the teachers but it's a relationship with their knowledge gathering so in our teachings we understand that we have sometimes we call like bundles our bundles our knowledge bundles we have actual physical bundles as well as more bundles of learning so what are we we're responsible for putting that in there and so if we have a good relationship in understanding this was comes from from the teachings

Beyond Tokenism And True Land-Based Learning

Mona 42:10

and we also see okay we're building our physical bundle and oftentimes our physical bundle starts off with rites of passage it could be traditional medicines it could be a shaker a drama a regalia it's those physical things that help us connect to more than just us alone and some might say you know that connects me to spirit that connects me but that physical bundle that's my understanding of what that is and our knowledge that also they they're they're connected but that's the the one we can't really see like what do I know how do I know this and if you're only given opportunity to learn Western understanding of how the world works and that creates uh sometimes an emptiness or a longing for especially if you know the history and you know that that was purposely taken away from you. So your inherent right to know who you are your language your ways uh I mean that's reconciliation I often refer to to this as two-handed teaching you can't just teach what what Canada did to us. Reconciliation is about actionable items. So if we're saying oh we did these residential schools everybody lost your language okay well how are then you giving back those opportunities to learn a language like value it then and so there's so many Different, I don't know what to call them, cogs or pieces that relate to each other, but it's really grounded in relationships and in my understanding, relationships with knowledge, relationships with people, relationships collectively, and then what do we need to do to change the systems and other pieces to actually allow and and build ways that are from our people.

Stacy 44:36

Well, thank you, Mona, for joining Daphne and I today. I am feel really grateful for having this conversation.

Daphna 44:46

Thank you, Mona, and I hope that this is just the beginning of uh our conversation, and we look forward to having you uh visit us again in the near future.

Mona 45:00

Thank you very much.